An Interview with Jay Greene: Another Bad Movie Resurrected?

Jay Greene

3.17.10 - Michael F. Shaughnessy - Jay, it seems that they are tinkering with the "national standards" again. How long has it been since they dredged this "Thing from the Grave?

An Interview with Jay Greene: Another Bad Movie Resurrected?

Michael F. Shaughnessy

Eastern New Mexico University

Portales, New Mexico

1) Jay, it seems that they are tinkering with the "national standards" again. How long has it been since they dredged this "Thing from the Grave?

It seems that we have to revisit the idea of national standards about every decade.  The last big push was in the late 1990s as part of President Clinton's Goals 2000.  Before that we had a push for national standards during the elder Bush's presidency.

2) Is there anything new about this new movie or should we just call it " The Return of What We Have Heard Before"?

I suspect this will end the same way.  We are such a big, diverse, and decentralized country that it is nearly impossible to arrive at broad agreement on any meaningful standards.  The result is either empty standards, like in the late 90s, or standards that do not achieve broad acceptance, like during the elder Bush era.

3) You would think that the Core Knowledge folk would want to get their curriculum deeply embedded into the dialog of this movie---are they on board for this?

To my surprise, the Core Knowledge foundation has fully endorsed the current draft national standards.  This is surprising to me because those standards still reflect a fair amount of 21st Century Skills ideas that are antithetical to the Core Knowledge emphasis on content knowledge. 

But even if the draft standards were substantively to the liking of Core Knowledge people, they seem to be forgetting that once the national standards car is built, it is inevitable that someone else will eventually get behind the wheel and drive it in a direction they don't like.  And since it will cover the entire country, there's no option to hop out of the car.

4) I hear that they are bringing back the t.v. show " The A-Team " and making it into a movie.....Do you think the standards will be any better or are we going to get "more of the same " with perhaps better jokes?

I suppose that the current effort at national standards may get a little further than past efforts because there is more acceptance of a larger federal role in education.  Even so, we still have the same problem where only standards lacking real heft can gain broad support.

5) Now let's talk cohesion. I could support national standards if they were closely aligned with some tests that really measured things.....Is this going to happen?

No one has any idea whether new tests will be well-aligned with new standards.  This is another reason why Core Knowledge and the Fordham Foundation should be expressing more reservations about this process than they have been.

6) There are a lot of different kinds of students out there, including students with various disabilities and students various interests and abilities?  Will all students be held to the same national standards?

This is a serious problem with national standards beyond the political concerns I've expressed above.  Even if we could all agree on rigorous, quality standards and even if we could be assured that no one would ever hijack those standards and impose nonsense in the future, we have the reality that not all students should be learning the same things at the same time.  Some students move faster in school and should be learning more.  Some students need more time.  Some students would benefit from a different emphasis on different material.  To impose a single set of standards on all children given how different all of our children are is educationally disastrous.  Of course, we could make those standards sufficiently vague and general that they incorporate this great diversity, but then those standards are unlikely to be specific enough to be meaningful.

7) Is the attempt to impose national standards akin to "The Great American Train Wreck" or " The Great American Robbery "?

Ha.  I think it's more like a train wreck.  No one is stealing anything here.  For the most part the people involved with this effort are good people trying to do something good.  They are just running the train down the track not realizing that the bridge is out.

8)  With national standards are we going to have the left end of the bell curve behind and the right hand side of the bell curve hopelessly bored?

Like I said above, any effort to impose a single set of standards on everyone is sure to be one size fits none.

9) Checker Finn, seems to be playing Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde on the issue of national standards- or am I off on this?

Checker is one of the good people I was mentioning above.  He's been pining for national standards for decades now.  But in the past he has been rightly disappointed that the efforts have either contained bad substance or been lacking in substance.  I'm not sure why he thinks this one will end up any differently, but you should probably ask him.

10) What have I neglected to ask or have I fallen asleep in the middle of the movie? 

I wouldn't blame you if you had fallen asleep.  Rather than replaying this old movie, we should be promoting the very good standards that various people have developed so that local schools, school district, and even states might adopt them.  And then let's expand choice and competition so that people can find the schools with good standards that work for them.