An Interview with Diana Senechal: Reflections on Teaching

Michael F. Shaughnessy - 10.21.09
Senior Columnist EducationNews.org
Eastern New Mexico University
Portales, New Mexico

1)      First of all, could you tell us about yourself and your education?

        I grew up in Massachusetts. My parents were both math professors and took sabbaticals; we spent one year in the Netherlands and one year in the Soviet Union. I loved languages, math, music, literature, and history, and wrote poetry and fiction often. I studied cello seriously, practicing several hours a day. I studied at Yale as an undergraduate and graduate, and wrote my dissertation on Nikolai Gogol. I later earned my masters in education through the NYC Teaching Fellows program. I have taken leaves of absence from study, during which time I worked in editing, counseling, and computer programming.

        I have always resisted a career path, but education is much more than a job for me. It draws on all of my interests, and I think about it most of the time. I love reading education philosophy and history. I particularly admire the work of Diane Ravitch; through her books I have become acquainted with many education writers of the past. I took a deep interest in the work of education philosopher Michael John Demiashkevich, and presented a paper about him at the 2009 conference of the Organization of Educational Historians.

2)      I understand that you have taught in a Core Knowledge School for several years. What was it like?

        I have taught in the NYC public schools for four years: at a middle school for the first three years, and a Core Knowledge elementary school for the fourth. I sought out the school because I am an admirer of Core Knowledge. It was wonderful to work with children who had such rich background as a result of the curriculum. One day, when leading rehearsal of A Midsummer Night’s Dream, I started to explain a reference to Cupid. The children (fourth and fifth graders) jumped in and finished the explanation for me. Similar things have happened on other occasions: students telling me about music, mythology, history, and literature. Not only do they have the background, but they are excited when it comes into play.

        Another thing I love about Core Knowledge is the sheer appeal of the curriculum. I enjoy reading the Core Knowledge books in my own time. Core Knowledge leaves it to the teacher (or school, or district, as the case might be) to determine how to teach the lesson; the sequence only specifies what should be taught. This leaves much room for creativity. I taught “literature through theater,” so I often took poems and stories from the Core Knowledge Sequence and had my students act them out.  

        My second grade students recited Christina Rossetti’s “Who Has Seen the Wind?” while acting as the trees and wind. They loved doing this, and by the time we had the performance perfected, they knew the poem by heart.

        One challenge is that Core Knowledge schools are not at full liberty to take the curriculum and run with it. They must meet all sorts of other requirements, such as state standards and district mandates. Even so, I saw teachers and students do all sorts of interesting things with the curriculum. If you walk through the school (a beautiful historic landmark in the East New York section of Brooklyn), you might hear violins playing, see first graders rehearsing a performance about hieroglyphics, or pass by elegant murals of Roman architecture.

3)      Let’s talk about the so called “typical or average“ teacher. What challenges do they face and why?

        I am sure most teachers face the challenge of classroom management. You have to establish good routines, quell disruptions immediately, and set the right tone and pace for the class. Then there is the challenge of paperwork, paperwork, and more paperwork—forms teachers must fill out during class, items they must post on the wall, and mounds of data. Teachers must also follow mandates about the bulletin boards, the arrangement of the desks, the format of the lessons. Beyond that, many schools have no explicit curriculum, so teachers are continually figuring out what to teach. And schedules and programs change frequently.

4)      Now, writing is near and dear to many of our hearts. What is wrong with the way we teach and require writing?

        Much of the writing in schools is weak on subject matter. In many literacy programs, “motivation” is paramount. Dostoevsky wrote, in Notes from Underground,

       “But what can a decent man speak of with most pleasure?
Answer: Of himself.
Well, so I will talk about myself.”

        Students are asked to write about themselves—their reaction to the world, their response to literature (mainly making connections to themselves), their personal lives, and their opinions on a variety of topics. This is not bad in moderation, but in practice it often means that teachers do not challenge students on the substance of what they say. The students’ perspectives and interpretations are sacrosanct. Combine this with a non-curriculum, and you have students writing on assorted subjects with no coherence and little guidance from the teacher. They go through the so-called “writing process”—brainstorming, drafting, revision, editing, and publishing—but even so, their final versions may have all sorts of problems that don’t get addressed.

        Schools hesitate to correct students explicitly. Administrators told us never to use a red pen when commenting, never to write directly on the students’ work, and always to include one compliment and one suggestion. Thus it was hard to make detailed corrections of grammar and spelling. Students need these corrections. If you just write, “check your punctuation,” they may not know what is wrong. On the other hand, it is a mistake to make myriad corrections without explaining the underlying principles. Students need a combination of principles and details, and they need grammar instruction so that they can guide themselves.

5)      Now, reading, both fiction and non-fiction is seen as critical. How do we get kids reading and keep them reading good material?

        I believe strongly in a literature curriculum and whole-class instruction. When students read a work of literature together as a class, they can come to understand it in new ways. The teacher can provide background information (on the author, the historical context, the idiosyncrasies of the author’s language and style, etc.) and probe for understanding. Through class discussion, students can learn from each other, hear the work read out loud, and experience it together. The work builds resonance through the repetition and close study. When they are dispersed in groups reading different books, this does not happen, and the books they read may not be as rich. As with writing, many reading programs just want to get students to read—but they forget that many students will be inspired by literature class.

        Some argue that not all students are interested in the books that the teacher selects, and that they will read more if left to choose their own books. All students should be encouraged to read widely on their own, and they should be given a variety of materials across the subject areas. But reading a lot is not the same as reading meaningful material. Students do not know what will ultimately have meaning for them. A text may seem forbidding at first, but with an excellent teacher they can come to understand it, and it may stay with them for the rest of their lives.

6)      What are you currently working on?

        I am currently working on a book. I have stepped back from teaching in order to write it. The topic is related to education and culture. I would give more details, but I have promised myself not to talk about it until I have another chapter written! I find that I focus better when I don’t talk too much. 

7)      How has NCLB impacted education and you in particular?

         NCLB has place inordinate emphasis on test scores. Since the tests in question are all multiple-choice, the law encourages a certain kind of “multiple-choice thinking,” which emphasizes strategies over actual knowledge. The point is not so much to understand the question as to get the right answer. You can do this by eliminating some of the options and making informed guesses.

        I have conducted two informal experiments on my own with the New York State standardized tests. In one experiment, I scored at level 2 (sufficient for promotion to the next grade) just by guessing. In the other, I answered the questions without reading the text passages—that is, I read the questions and options alone. In the latter case I made only two errors. This suggests to me that test scores have very little to do with knowledge and understanding. They have a lot to do with test prep.

        NCLB has affected me in all sorts of ways. For one, I had to provide test preparation like everyone else. The test prep materials are often ghastly: bland passages, poorly written questions, and a dreary dumbing down of material. Last year, when test prep was over, I taught my fifth-grade students the Greek alphabet and some Euclidean geometry. They were fascinated for a few lessons.

8)      Is the typical average teacher simply being asked to do way too much with too few resources?

I think so. Teaching is a wonderful profession, but it gets overwhelming quickly. It’s hard to manage a class, figure out what to teach, teach it, grade it, handle all the paperwork and mandates, prepare students for tests, help individual students as needed, call parents regularly, stay on your feet almost all day, lead extracurricular activities, attend meetings, and still retain a sliver of yourself. Teachers need to eat and sleep like anyone else. They need time with family and friends. They need to pursue their own interests and projects. The teaching profession has high turnover, and this is not good. It can take two or three years to hit your stride in teaching, and by that time many new teachers are gone. Then the teachers who replace them have to figure everything out from scratch. We need more teachers who stay for the long term—who have wisdom and experience, who help build the culture of the school.

9)       What question have I neglected to ask ?

These questions were excellent! Thank you for this interview. Here’s an idea for one more question:

What was one of the most interesting things that happened in one of your lessons?

I was teaching Sophocles’ Antigone to my eighth-grade ESL students. We had just read the scene in which Haimon confronts his father Creon, king of Thebes. I asked my students who was right: Haimon or Creon. I expected everyone to side with Haimon, especially the girls. To my surprise, one girl passionately defended Creon, saying that if he gave in, the state would fall apart. A lively debate followed. Two girls led it, but I found a way to get everyone involved.